buying a kiln

[suze0030]

Hi
I am looking to buy a kiln, but really dont know the first thing about it. I would like it for annealing and eventually fusing. i think i would like a bead door but that's probably because they are the only ones i have actually seen. would also like it for bulk work. can you help me out?
cheers
x

[Mary]

Definitely get a bead door if it's mostly beads you want it for, or you'll be limited to batch annealing, which you you will regret. The SC2 is a lovely tidy little kiln, and will fuse small items too. When you say bulk work, if you want to fuse lots at once you'll want something bigger, maybe a Caldera?

[Lee - Kilncare]

OUCH!!!!!!!! A real toughy to start with, get ready to vet me admin.

I HAVE to reply to any questions on here with an answer that cannot come back to me and bite me on the backside legaly as I'm sure you would agree.

So here goes. Caldera first. mmmmmm....... How do I say this......right. American kiln manufacturers tend to work under far less stringent regulations than we do  in Europe, and the Europeans less stringent than here in the U.K. The British Health and Safety Executive state that basically, there should be no way the user can touch a live element under ANY circumstances and also the switch that does this protecting must be of a certain type and operate in a certain way. I have a question for Caldera users on here, is there anyway you can touch the elements when they are working, maybe by lifting the lid off or tilting the kiln? I know the answer and it is a real issue with me that we are regulated so tightly whilst cheaper, non compying american imports are readily sold. Simply asking the user to turn off the kiln before opening the lid e.t.c. is almost unbelievable. I wouldn't reccommend a Caldera for that reason alone.

The SC2 is probably the best value kiln on sale in the U.K. and in it's new state is O.K. but the 2 similarly built kilns we have had in for repair both have had the elements pulling out of the corners of the chamber and as there is no door switch then they also can be touched whilst live. The only way to remady this is to change the whole chamber as the element is set into the insulation. I'm sure though, as it has sold very well that you could get very good advice on the specifics of that kiln from the many users of it that use this forum. It may not be a problem with the SC2 so check with others who have had them for a while.

Another kiln that may suit is the Nabertherm and that has the element in a quartz tube but again there is no door switch so if the quartz tube is broken then the element is there to be touched.

We now make a bead annealer that is fully compliant but obviously it is dearer than the SC2 and Caldera, probably same as the Naber and that's not a plug, it is purely pointing out the options.

The above H.S.E. things I pointed out I have had to as I'm sure you would understand. But I also realise that you are mainly single lone users and to be honest, I suppose what you do is you choice. JUST PLEASE if you are using a Caldera, or an SC2 type kiln with the element showing, be carefull.

End of the day, kilns are expensive and American ones are quite a saving. The bottom line is what can you get for your money I suppose. So. if price is the factor the SC2 with a bead door is the one.

Sorry admin, like I say a toughy to start with. If something is illegal or dodgy I'm sure you'd agree that I must point it out to cover my own backside.

Hasn't anyone got a burnt out contactor our there, or a broken element or maybe a cracked brick please.


added some spaces - J

[suze0030]

Well i think that was a very good and in depth reply, thank you 

i'm thinking about the sc2, thanks to the advice given by the users on here.
x

[Mary]

My SC2 has no visible elements, I got it about a year ago.

[Les]

is there a difference between kilns being manufactured specifically for the UK market... or simply rewired ?

I'm a bit of a dunce myself here

[Lee - Kilncare]

Yes mate, unfortunately there is a difference and it is an unfair one.

Kilns sold here in the U.K. should have a door switch, if the elements can be touched through use or by accident, that turns off the actual power cable to the elements. This switch must push or be pushed to turn the elements off, not be pushed to turn the elements on, this way means that you cannot accidently lean on the switch or accidently press it whilst loading so turning on the elements.

I have seen American kilns that when you press the switch the elements come on and as far as I've seen American kilns do not switch the power cable but they send a signal to turn the power off with a relay. All well and good until the relay sticks in the on position. Many European kilns switch this way but tend to use a more reliable, or should I say acceptable switching method.

We are the only country where the power cables MUST be broken with the actual switch and the difference, other than extra wiring, time and design/construction is that we have to use switches that can be anywhere from £15 to £100 depending on the kiln, where the non-British way can do it for a fiver.

I have spent hundreds and thousands of pounds to my thoughts and 100's of hours trying to clarify this situation with the H.S.E. whos guidlines these are. They are on a sticky wicket here and they know it. The European way of switching can carry a CE mark yet it is not good enough for Britain. That means that technically European kilns switching that way should not be sold here. That puts the H.S.E. in direct conflict with the European Parliament as Britain would be seen to be restricting trade from other member countries. OOOPS.

BUT although the H.S.E. are reluctant to do anything about sales of kilns that do not comply to H.S.E. guidlines, They have made it clear that IF someone gets hurt by a kiln that is not done to H.S.E. standards then the manufacturer (if British) or the importer and the manufacturer via European associate bodies (if European) or just the importer (if non European), will feel an H.S.E. investigation and possible prosecution.

So although the H.S.E. will not stop these sales they will do something about them if something goes wrong. The H.S.E. booklet they will use to apply prosecution will be "the safe use of ceramic kilns". They will not tell us what is right or wrong but they just keep saying that we must comply to this book in which it states about the door switch type and CLEARLY states that the element power cables should be broken and NOT the relay. So anyone selling American kilns, well, that should be, the majority of American kilns, not only are running a risky game but, if they are the importer, may as well have made the kilns themselves if something goes wrong because as they are the importer to the E.U. from outside the E.U. then that importer has a duty to ensure it meets relavent guidlines.

Which brings me onto rant number 2 over the Caldera. Not only does it not (or didn't when I last saw one and that was only a couple of months ago) use an American type switch, or a European type switch BUT IT DOESN'T use a switch at all and relies on the user to turn of the kiln before entering it. The elements can be touched, easily, whilst they are alive. If something happens to someone then the H.S.E. will have a field day on the importer of these kilns as they not only don't comply to the iffy British rules, but they don't comply to European directives and that could be interesting. If this situation with the Caldera has changed then someone let me know because I checked today on the Paragon site and the safety switch they mention on there is nothing more than an on-off switch that you press before entering the kiln.

Now, not that I am a fan of our H.S.E. regulations in this case but the facts are that if H.S.E. guidlines are followed then it is all but impossible to get a shock without physically dismantling the kiln. Bare in mind that a kiln is one of the most electrically dangerous items that you can ever buy or use. What else can you buy where you can touch bare electrified wires (elements) whilst preparing the unit for use or in it's designed use.

I mentioned earlier that the Nabertherm uses quartz tube elements without a door switch, as do many European fusing kilns. I reckon this complies possibly to European directives. We also use a door switch when we use the quartz tube elements as there is still a risk of electricution if the tube gets broken, as is highly possilby when placing kilns or raking glass e.t.c.. The phrase that is loose but scary is "taken all reasonable steps to protect from electricution."

Flamin heck, you did ask didn't you.

Bottom line is British kiln makers are forced to make kilns safer and use more expensive switches than any other country on earth. As more and more American and European kilns are brought in this country it will be interesting to see what happens if, heaven forbid, someone does get seriously hurt.

By the way, a CE mark only means that the company claim the kiln meets standards. It does not mean that the kiln HAS been tested by CE. Any piece of crap can be sold with a CE
AND the H.S.E. kiln specialist department has been disbanded. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!




edited to add some spaces

[Les]

LOL..... sorry I asked Lee.....

Well what a minefield.. !!!!!!!!!

Just as well I can't afford a new one.... hahahaha......... I'd go into meltdown.. hehehe

[Sarah]

I have an SC2 & it has no visible elements. if you open the door it doesn't switch off. But when switched on its a wee bit hot in there so common sense tells me not to put my paws inside. It displays the temp on the outside of the kiln so even when it isn't red hot I can tell when its safe to open the door.

Beadmaking is a dangerous hobby. There are lots of ways we can hurt ourselves & our nearest & dearest when playing with fire & gas. My view is that if I follow sensible safety guidelines with my torch, propane tank & kiln then all should be OK. But I am pretty religious about those guidelines.

So please don't be put off - just make sure you always follow good practice guidelines. And don't take any risks.

[Lee - Kilncare]

You are totally right Sarah, reading back it can seem a little scary what I wrote. As you say, use common sense and enjoy a fabulous hobby. The rules are there to guard against folk who don't use common sense.

Hey guys, I haven't got a big issue with American kilns, I have a big issue with the unfair way in which the rules stack the odds against us Brit kiln makers.

I'm off back to the cup final.

Is my spacing a bit better now Littlegiggles? 

[Marijane]

I have a question for Caldera users on here, is there anyway you can touch the elements when they are working, maybe by lifting the lid off or tilting the kiln? I know the answer and it is a real issue with me that we are regulated so tightly whilst cheaper, non compying american imports are readily sold. Simply asking the user to turn off the kiln before opening the lid e.t.c. is almost unbelievable. I wouldn't reccommend a Caldera for that reason alone.

I use the Caldera with the bead collar. If you had a super long mandrel with a hooked end and were really determined to self destruct yourself you could with some difficulty touch an element.  Sorry, but  can't see that this could be done by accident if the kiln is used in a normal way. 

[Lee - Kilncare]

Hi Petra, thanks for the update. As I said, the last one I saw was not brand new and there is no reference on the internet to door switches on Caldera kilns. I'm also not against you or anyone else selling them. I do, as I said previously, feel aggrieved at the restrictions imposed on us Brits. If you go fully into the HSE guidelines e.t.c. you will see that a must not only have a cut off switch but it must also operate in a certain way. Am I right that the different sections of the Caldera are now bolted together or can you still simply take the chamber off with the elements running. Does the lid have hinges or is it still lift off, if so can it be put on at an angle and the door switch be operated. Does the bead collar fix on or can that be removed while the elements are on without unbolting. You see, there are many different things to consider.

Please, I am not here to make enemies or be the bad boy, I am here to help and give honest advice from a manufacturer. I do not make the HSE rules, they do, but I do have it in black and white what they are and I'm just trying to give people the info.

I have just this morning has an Evenheat kiln in for repair, it had a door switch and there was no way the lid could be removed e.t.c. In normal every day use it is very safe IMO, but, in the eyes of the HSE it would have failed as the door switch, that worked perfectly well, operated in a way that it is clearly stated it should not.

I do agree as you say Marijane that in many cases you would have to be pretty daft or determined to get a shock with many of the kilns that "don't comply" and in many cases under normal conditions they are safe, but I HAVE to make people aware of issues and I CANNOT recommend a kiln that I, as a British manufacturer, know not to comply to our regs. If I did and someone got hurt then in the libel crazy world I'm sure I'd end up in trouble with someone as I'm sure you'd agree.

As I've said before, our HSE have laws on kilns that exceed European Directives and as such could be seen as restricting trade, but, as yet, they are not planning on relaxing the recommendations on kiln safety as far as I know.

Petra, why not pop a Caldera in the boot of your car and I'll happily do you a cuppa and give it the once over. If, as you say, it is now up to British spec then I'll happily come on here and let the world know. One thing to think of though is that even if you have assurances from the manufacturer YOU will still be seen as the importer and as it is made in a non-European country, you would be held responsable for the integrity of the system. I am more than happy to give you my opinions and maybe put your mind at rest on the Caldera free of charge. Oh by the way, thanks for the update on the SC2 and as you can see from above, I did recommend that Suze got one as they are cheap and as far as I know, compliant. I did only recommend that if the element became exposed then people should be carefull but as they have now resolved the issue then fine. Hopefully see you round here some time.

Lee